Insubordination or Typical 5 Year Old Behavior?

While I do think that it's "typical" for a 5 yo to test boundaries and even (gasp) start to express what they do and do not "want" to do, I doubt it's an indication of a life of insubordination or a life of crime! LOL

Reverend Ruby--REALLY "Contact Social Services" about her BIL? Because he doesn't drive, has not job and is rude and disrespectful? Seriously? I hope they have LOTS of beds for 72 hour holds. Not saying there isn't something else going on with the man, but from the info given? I think that's a bit extreme.

I think you're being too h*** o* him, Mama... His behavior is really normal for his age and for the family situation. It's very hard for kids this age (and older... my 7 year old still has trouble) sorting out their feelings, where they are coming from and how to convey their needs.

I really think you need to allow your son to have his feelings and TALK to him and be present with him instead of demanding that he comply to what you and the rest of the family want to do, and then punishing him when he's not acting the way you want him to. Do you really want a child who complies with what anyone tells him and puts on a happy face when he doesn't like something? Probably not, but even if you do you won't get it at this age. That takes years of someone being taught to repress their feelings with a self esteem so low that they've given up on trying to express how they feel or the hope that they are able to show how they really feel.

I've recommended over and over, the book Raising An Emotionally Intelligent Child. And I agree with Peg M. about the recommendation of Siblings Without Rivalry, and How To Talk So Your Kids Will Listen... I would not recommend the book Love and Logic. I have read it, and it does have some helpful information, but I think the methods of the other books might be more helpful to you based on what you've written here.

As far as the BIL goes. There's a vast difference between a 36 year old man with years of life experience and a 5 year old. Don't stress yourself that your son will turn out like this. Your son needs more love, understanding, time with you, nurturing, not to be "whipped into shape."

I think we all go through these fears at times. We don't know how to handle these new "behaviors" our kids are are exhibiting and worry that they are leading to a more serious problem. Take a step back, read some books, take some breaths and concentrate more on understanding your sons needs than controlling him.

Good luck!

Wow, what sort of military family do you come from? He is 5. He is also human and has his own feelings. These re real feelings. He has s right to not always agree with you or to be in the mood you want him to be in.

Demanding he do things is fine, but if we could tell you there are ways to speak to children so that they feel like they are wanted, and included to join the family group, wouldn't that make you feel better? I bet it would make your little boy feel better.

There are a lot of changes.. Is he also going to start kinder this fall? Keep in mind he is the oldest. but he is still just a young child.

They are internalizing, they are observing and they are bright, but they are also very sensitive. He wants to please, but he also wants you to know, if you consider him a big boy, you need to listen to what he is telling you. Validate what he is telling you. it will go a long way in letting him know you heard him and understand. It will also allow you to help him validate what you also need and want..

Yes, it takes time. Yeas you now have 3 children and it would be so much easier if they just did everything you told them to do.. But they are no little soldiers. Each of them is an individual with their own free will and their own ideas and isn't that the goal? You guide them by including them.

Your BIL was raised by different parents, he sounds like he was never allowed to really make his own choices so what he did instead is shut down.. Maybe to rebel, maybe because he was not taught to make his own good choices.. Maybe he has a mental illness or could be extremely depressed. Depression is not some weepy person in a corner, it can be a person that has no drive no way to make good choices because they are overwhelmed by their chemical imbalances.

PLEASE let this be the very last time you compare your child to anyone else. He is a special individual, figure out what makes him tick, what motivates him, what gets him excited and use that to motivate and include him..

I am sending you strength.. You are an amazing mom to have 3 children and still have energy to go on a walk!!!! Do some good things for yourself too.. you deserve it!

Pretty normal behavior!! Don't be too h*** o* him. Try to be uplifting when correcting him. "I need your help....." is the phrase that works wonders with my seven year old. "Sweetie, you are teaching your little brother and sister how to act so we need to share" "I can help you if you tell me what is wrong..." Give him lots of hugs and kisses and encourage him to express himself. Validate him because I am sure he is feeling like he is left out. Let him pick a special activity to do. If you need to take him out be himself to a movie then you should do it. The terrible twos can be handled pretty much the same way. If you want her to do something and she doesn't want to then find a fun way to get your point across and the job done. I would suspect that the 36 year old has other issues that are going on. A 5 year old can not really be compared to a 36 year old. You really have no idea what went on when the BIL was growing up so you should really focus on the positives in your family.

This all sounds like very typical behavior for that age, plus you also have the two year old competing for your attention.

But I think you ought to really look at what is 'insubordination' (is he in the Army or at day camp?!?) and what is really not that big a deal.

For example, of course you do not want to ENCOURAGE rudeness- but there is a big difference between being rude to a camp counselor and simply saying that he didn't want to play a certain game and wanted to sit out- there is nothing illegal about wanting to sit out of a game you don't like or don't enjoy, if he expressed himself politely and didn't cause trouble while he was sitting out. Maybe he just wanted to do a craft or other project instead.

I agree with the other poster that you can't realistically compare your 5 year old to your adult BIL. Sure, it is very possible that the way his parents treated him helped him become who he is today- but that is a pretty heavy guilt trip to lay on a 5 year old, and it is based on YOU and how you feel about your BIL- not even about how you feel about your own son!

Kids are always testing your boundries. My son is almost 12 now and is VERY polite and well behaved. I am a fairly strict mother, but I also know that you have to bend a little sometime, or you will go crazy- as they say "put out the big fires and step over the small ones;'

If your son is whining or being rude, make sure he knows AHEAD of time what the consequences will be for that. Sit down with him when he is in a good mood and talk to him and be VERY specific, or make a chart, so that he knows ahead of time if he throws a tantrum, X is what the consequence is, etc.

But know that whining and foot-dragging are going to happen with even the best behaved child. You will have to repeat your consequences and telling him that being rude is not acceptable THOUSANDS of times before it sinks in- and even then there will be lapses. You will occasionally grit your teeth and be frustrated- but you are the parent. Just stay calm and above all be CONSISTENT and make sure dad and other family members and baby sitters are too.

Decide now what issues are really important to you and what you can let go. I have never tolerated rudeness and talking back. But a little foot-dragging or wanting to sit out a game at camp is just a normal thing. Have some faith in your son and your own ability to parent him. It's totally asking for trouble to overdo it now just because you have a BIL who is an adult screw-up! Don't put that kind of pressure on a five year old.

I asked my son the other day if I am more strict than other moms and he thought about and said that even though he didn't always think I was right, that I was 'just the right amount' of strict! :) I was so happy- but he is almost 12 so it took YEARS to get him to that POV! :) Good luck!

Heck I think it sounds like human behavior :). Sometimes we all have opinions on what we do and don't want to do. As others have mentioned choosing to sit out of a group activity is (or should) always be an option if it is done with respect and it is possible for both the group and the one sitting out to remain safe and non-disruptive. Five is quite young (I know it doesn't seem like that with your oldest!) and he may have just been tired of group things and wanted down time or maybe he didn't like that particular activity or whatever. Doesn't really matter - it isn't as if it was a matter of responsibility like not showing up for a team sport or something.

The walk is a bit more difficult because he is too young to be left at home and if others need to get out of the house that is a consideration as well. He was the one pouting because he was the one who didn't want to go! If any adult gets railroaded into a situation without feeling like their needs were considered (ever been the one on the short end of the stick when a group decides where to eat?) that adult is also more likely to find things about the situation that they don't like. A little negotiation and consideration for everyone up front can often prevent these situations from turning into a power struggle. Perhaps acknowledging that he didn't want to go for the walk, but that it would be short and he could return to whatever he was doing, or giving him time to finish up something before leaving, or asking him to draw a treasure map for you to follow or to make one on the way, or putting him in charge of getting everyone home safely (maybe even blind-folding him for a block or so to make it even more exciting) any of those things may have made the walk more palatable for him.

It is exhausting being the at home parent in a house full of kids - I'm a homeschooling mom of 5 so I understand the new baby dragging feeling. I also have a couple of kids who have taught me what wonders can occur when kids actually feel listened to and acknowledged as legitimate human beings (boy would it help if someone reminded me of this before I open my mouth sometimes LOL).

A great book for this is Respectful Parents, Respectful Kids: 7 Keys to Turn Family Conflict into Cooperation http://www.amazon.com/Respectful-Parents-Kids-Conflict-Co....

Oh and I concur with others who say to forget the BIL. Who the heck knows what combination of experiences and personality contributed to who he is at 36 but we do know that it is an absolute impossibility for your children to experience the same combinations so just connect with them as the individuals they are. :)

Good luck with the adjustment to number 3 and congratulations!

ETA I am also not a fan of Love and Logic. While there may be a tidbit here and there the useful ones you'll find in the _How to Talk_ series others have mentioned. I listened to the Love and Logic read by the authors eons ago and was horrified by their attitude of "gotcha" toward their children and they almost seemed gleeful when life circumstances gave them an "I told you so" moment. Ick.

I hope you'll do your best to address your son's issues as the individual he is, not because you're comparing him to your BIL. He may be trying to express some needs that are not being met, especially with a new baby in the house.

Feelings are always legitimate, and I'll bet your son does not believe his feelings are being taken into account. You describe a top-down choice to get out and do something fun daily. That is genuinely admirable. And are you checking to find out what your son thinks is fun?

He may also be needing some one-on-one attention from you that does NOT involve him getting in trouble for acting out, and that does not include the other children in your growing family. I suspect he's a bit uncertain about his place in your heart, and that's a common cause of angst and acting out. It will help to make a point of noticing those moments when he's helping, cooperating, communicating calmly, and playing constructively. Not making a big deal of it, just noticing appreciatively.

I strongly recommend an outstanding parenting book, my personal favorite because it's so readable, doable, and effective. How to Talk So Kids Will Listen, and Listen So Kids Will Talk, by Faber and Mazlish, will give you simple tools for connecting with your son and letting him know how important he still is to you. I've had great reports from a number of young families to whom I've suggested this book. And the same authors have another book for families with multiple children that is strongly endorsed by families who use it, called Siblings Without Rivalry.

Hi C.~

I have the book Raising Kids with Love and Logic and it is really good. They have one for raising toddlers as well. I would recommend your reading it and it is old enough you could probably find it at a local library or on half.com for very little. It has helped me look differently on how to speak to my kids. For example, I like my kids to make their beds first thing in the morning. I was tired of reminding them to get it done. So now, thanks to Love and Logic, I say your breakfast is ready, feel free to come get your plate as soon as your beds are made. It's amazing how quickly the beds get made, nobody is grumpy and I don't feel like a nag. I do think what you're experiencing is typical 5 year old behavior and your daughter sounds like a spirited child. Don't lose heart, spirited kids are great ones. Bless your heart, I am sure you are exhausted with all you're doing. Cut yourself some slack you have a brand new baby. Everyone is trying to figure out where they fit. I think getting out of the house every day is a great idea. I know when mine were little, especially my son who had colic, walks were a lifesaver. If he's pouting about not wanting to go, I would try to ignore it for the most part. You can always say I'm sorry you feel that way, but we are doing X and go. Another Love and Logic catch phrase I use a lot when my kids try to engage me because they don't want to do what I tell them is "I love you too much to argue with you".

Regarding your brother in law. It is very hard when your child's behavior reminds you of someone you don't want them to model after. I have the same issue. My husband's family has several nieces and nephews in their mid to late 20's who don't work, don't go to school, and think it's their parent's job or the government's job to take care of them. When I spend much time around them, I find myself being harder on my kids because I don't want them to have those values (or in my opinion lack there of). I've had to take a deep breath, realize that they are not around them often and pray that our hard work ethic will be what they choose. The bottom line is though, they can choose differently than you raise them. My family is prime example. There are 3 kids, all raised by the same parents in the same house. My sister and I are very driven, goal oriented and have worked hard to attain where we are. My brother, not so much. He works in walking distance to his house, spends money the moment he gets it, has no drive to do anything differently. He is content to live the way he does and he's a great person, I don't understand why he does what he does, but I don't have to. So in my opinion, you can lead by example, point out what the differences are and then later they will choose for themselves.

Blessings to you!
L.

i think you are doing a fine job parenting!!!!!!!!!! the world needs more parents like you who care enough to discipline!!!! i just wanted to tell you that!

I also love Love and Logic. Check it out! :)

My son was just like this at age 5 and much worse! We had to crack down with consequences he really didn't like EVERY time he was rude/insubordinate/impossible. I'm happy to say he is now a very well behaved 7 yr old. My opinion is just keep giving him consequences (that he will really hate, like taking away video games if he loves them) and keep being black and white about it. He will mature.

My first though when I saw your headline: he's learning it from someone. How much time does he spend with the uncle? How much do you talk about the uncle? Your son hears everything even if you think he isn't listening. Uncle is getting attention through negative behavior and now so is your son.

You have a new baby and a 2 yr old as well as a 5 yr old. I think the 5 yr old is seeking out Mommy time and has found that negative behaviors at least get him some attention.

As far as the BIL goes, it's time for an intervention. Contact Social Services and see what it would take to have him commited on a 72 (3 day) hold. That will give his medical staff enough time to get a diagnosis he could be a substance abuser and that could be masking a greater issue. he may have any one of a number of mental illnesses. Once you have a diagnosis get him into a treatment center, halfway house or whatever is available. Do not enable him to waste his life or let his issues impact your life.